tus n. indeclinabile

Terry S.

scurra
Staff member
Can anyone tell me what this entry is about? I can't find it in the OLD.

 

Issacus Divus

ᛋᚢᚾᚢ ᚱᛖᛟᚱᛞᚲᚤᚾᛁᚾᚷᚨᛋ
Well, it has a German translation, and the German word Würfel means die, and Zwei means two. I don’t know the context of this, though.
 
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Bitmap

Civis Illustris
That seems like a weird entry to me ... tus, turis n. is a) declinable and b) means frankincense, not "two dice".
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Hmm, is it possible something got in from an Old English database? Because if it's supposed to say s(= singular) and neuter, then it'd be correct. OE (although usually neuter, can be fem.) does translate to G Zwei, and maybe the word in parentheses (Wuerfel) is not the translation but rather an example? Very odd.

Then again, it does seem likely that the reflex of 'dice' in some Germanic dialect would be tus.
 
The entry has to be some kind of error. Not only the OLD, but neither Lewis & Short, Smith & Hall, The DMLBS, nobody has such an entry.
 

Big Horn

Member
All of the dictionaries have tus, turis including the Collins Gem. It is defined as incense or frankincense or tus terrae, a plant also known as chamaepitys. It is sometimes spelled as thus. It was adapted into Latin from Greek θύος, τό. The plural, tura, is only found in the Nominative and Accusative. cases.

See Allen & Greenough 103 G. 1. for other neuter nouns in this class.

I can't understand how anyone could have failed to find this word. Niermeyer doesn't have it because his dictrionary is medieval. I only checked it because I assumed that it was not in the standard dictionaries.
 

Big Horn

Member
I began my investigation in the index of Allen & Greenough under the entry "indeclinable nouns." I found "list of, 103. a;" The relevant subsection is 103. g. 1,

"The following neuters have in the plural the nominative and the accusative only: fel (fella). far (farra), hordeum (hordea), ius broth (iura), mel (mella), murmur (murmura), pus (pura), rus (rura), tus or thus (tura)."

The two sources offered present very different information. Allen & Greenough was initially published in 1888. A revised edition was published in 1903. As far as I know it has never been out of print. It is a standard reference. I know nothing of latin.cactus2000.de. Neither Gildersleeve & Lodge nor any other grammars I could find treat these words. Dickson College has Allen & Greenough on their website.
 

Dantius

Homo Sapiens
Staff member
Yes. Nobody's denying any of that. Terry was asking if the word as described on latin.cactus2000.de was correct. We all said it wasn't.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
This dictionary suggests that in late Latin, the indeclinable 'tus' stands for the number "2" on a die:

 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Pons obviously doesn't offer any sources and I haven't found that entry in any other dictionary so far ... if it does exist somewhere, it might indeed be some kind of Germanism. It's a bit of a mystery. If we wait a few more years, maybe ThLL will have made it to the letter T.

Found another one. Langenscheidt calls it mediaeval:

 
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Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I also found this entry on a play called "Frankfurter Dirigierrolle" or "Frankfurter Passionsspiel" ... don't ask me what it is, can't be bothered to read the whole thing.

https://books.google.de/books?id=_RAgAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA808&lpg=PA808&dq="tus"+zwei+würfel+latein&source=bl&ots=4UqEeh9CM0&sig=ACfU3U1iomCZChV7rL-jn3nXZg4S28ljPw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz5M7OwJvmAhUQLVAKHdSUCiwQ6AEwA3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q="tus"%20zwei%20würfel%20latein&f=false

On page 808 it says:

Quellen
Grundsätzlich liegt Joh. 19, 23-24 (etc.) zugrunde. Darüber hinaus führt der Autor ein typisches zeitgenössisches Würfelspiel in authentischer Terminologie vor. Schon im Mittelalter wurde beim Spiel um Geld in der Regel der kubische Würfel verwendet. Die Augen auf den sechs Flächen waren so angebracht, dass die Summe der zwei gegenüberliegenden Seiten stets die Zahl 7 ergab. Die Bezeichnungen für die Anzahl der Augen auf dem Würfel sind überwiegend lateinischen oder romanischen Ursprungs, also esse für 1, tus oder dus für 2, tres für 3, quater für 4, zink für 5, ses für 6.

Sources
The main source is John 19, 23-24 (and others). Additionally, the author presents a contemporary game of dice in authentic terminology. Already in the Middle Ages, cubic dice were used when playing for money. The pips on the six sides of the die were applied in such a way, that the sum of two opposing sides always added up to 7. The terms for the number of pips on the die were mainly of Latin or Romance origin, i.e. esse for 1, tus or dus for 2, tres for 3, quater for 4, zink for 5, ses for 6.
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Das ist sehr gut getan, Herr Bitmap.
 

Hemo Rusticus

J. Wellington Wimpy
Thrilled to know the German for 'pip', which is evidently 'eye'? Das Auge, nicht wahr?
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Thrilled to know the German for 'pip', which is evidently 'eye'? Das Auge, nicht wahr?
Yes, it is. You could also say "Punkt", I think (at least I would do that) ... but sometimes you need that technical term to demonstrate the difference. For example, in the card game Skat, 'Augen' denotes the value of a card while 'Punkte' refers to the number of points you gain or lose for a game.

Btw. German often uses 'machen' where English uses 'to do' ... so 'well done' would be 'gut gemacht'.
 

Terry S.

scurra
Staff member
Thanks to everyone who commented. I've emailed Cactus2000, so we'll see what reply if any, that I get.
 
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