As a fan of the first and greatest superhero, I found this debate (http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio:Superman#Nomen) particularly interesting. I've always used "Superhomo." To me, "Supervir" sounds more like "astronomically well-endowed man" than "Herculean hero of the modern era" or even more generally "man with superhuman capabilities" (the comment about "undue emphasis to the character's masculinity" on the linked page is my own). What are your opinions on what the Romans might've called good ol' Clarcus?
Superman: Supervir or Superhomo
- Thread starter Gregorius
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I actually think the complete opposite: vir to me brings to mind a hero, a male person of great courage and strength, Arma Virumque Cano (not just a man, not just an adult male person, but a great hero)... a superman, a supervir. If I had to explain to a Roman who Superman is, I would say that Superman is like Aeneas, a vir, not just a homo.Gregorius dixit:
And then there is the issue of Superman and Wonder Woman (although there is also Superwoman). Even to one who is not particularly familiar with the character naming histories and such, there is a sense that these two names are paired together. The same goes for Superboy and Supergirl. Vir even in this sense goes better with mulier, puer, and puella than homo.
Superhomo makes me think of a superhuman (male, female, a little kid perhaps), a superperson (ditto), or even a (*giggle*) superhomosexualis.
Well, the "undue empasis" thing would also apply to the super, and I frankly, I think that vir more readily brings to mind masculinity than super brings to mind astronomical concepts. It could be argued that the "astronomically well-endowed man" gives undue emphasis to the character's, and the word's, relationship to astronomy.Gregorius dixit:
Perhaps you have more of an issue with the super than with the vir.
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True, in Latin, heroes were usually simply called "viri", usually endowed with some positive attribute (like "Fortissimi viri").
Apart from that, I don't think either of these makes any sense. "Super" means "above" and I don't think a Roman would have ever seen that preposition detached from its actual meaning as we do today (we even use it as an adjective in modern languages).
I don't see the point of translating a word like "Superman", anyway. Why not leave it as is?
Apart from that, I don't think either of these makes any sense. "Super" means "above" and I don't think a Roman would have ever seen that preposition detached from its actual meaning as we do today (we even use it as an adjective in modern languages).
I don't see the point of translating a word like "Superman", anyway. Why not leave it as is?
Interesting. I was not aware that "vir" tended to have heroic connotations. Perhaps my interpretation was subconsciously colored by modern derivatives like "virile."
Regarding the point of translating names, I've always gone against prevailing wisdom regarding proper names in translated texts. In Spanish, for example, I prefer to call Superman "el Superhombre" (the definite article and capital S help to distinguish from Nietzsche's philosophical concept), even though about 95% of Hispanics will just say "Superman" with a distinctive accent. Something about reading a Spanish (or French or Italian, etc.) text with a few English names that stick out like sore thumbs just bugs me a little. Even in the case of my own name, I prefer that my Spanish professors call me "Gregorio" and my French teachers call me "Gregoire."
I do, however, see the reason for retention of most names in their original form, and I usually resign myself to not translating names at all when I need to be readily understood. In the case of Latin, though, I believe a stronger case can be made for proper name adaptation because of Latin's reliance on declension to convey meaning. If we just use "Superman," we have no way of indicating case, which may cause confusion in some situations.
Regarding the point of translating names, I've always gone against prevailing wisdom regarding proper names in translated texts. In Spanish, for example, I prefer to call Superman "el Superhombre" (the definite article and capital S help to distinguish from Nietzsche's philosophical concept), even though about 95% of Hispanics will just say "Superman" with a distinctive accent. Something about reading a Spanish (or French or Italian, etc.) text with a few English names that stick out like sore thumbs just bugs me a little. Even in the case of my own name, I prefer that my Spanish professors call me "Gregorio" and my French teachers call me "Gregoire."
I do, however, see the reason for retention of most names in their original form, and I usually resign myself to not translating names at all when I need to be readily understood. In the case of Latin, though, I believe a stronger case can be made for proper name adaptation because of Latin's reliance on declension to convey meaning. If we just use "Superman," we have no way of indicating case, which may cause confusion in some situations.
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Romans didn't usually translate names from other languages into their own one, but simply adapted them to Latin. We still do that today and that's actually also what's done in your case when your name shifts to "Gregorio" or "Gregoire". Your name comes from Ancient Greek and means 'vigilant' ... being consequent in translating names you would have to insist on a name like ... uhm "Vigilius" in Latin  Tongue.gif "(1) Tongue out :p")
And "alert one" in English 
or something like that.
Superman is sometimes "Supermann" in German, but only because "man" and "mann" are so similar; in a way, this too is more of an adaption than a translation. No one would ever dare call "Cat Woman" "Katzenfrau" though
The Romans did just the same thing and made foreign names fit into their own system of declension. So the Athenian Περικλης for example just became Pericles and was fitted into the 3rd declension: Pericles, Periclis, Pericli, Periclem etc.
If you want to decline Superman, why not do it the same way? Superman, supermanis, supermani, supermanem, supermane etc. ... or just add an -us: Supermanus, supermani, supermano etc.
I assume this would also be clearer to a modern day reader.
And "alert one" in English or something like that.Superman is sometimes "Supermann" in German, but only because "man" and "mann" are so similar; in a way, this too is more of an adaption than a translation. No one would ever dare call "Cat Woman" "Katzenfrau" though
The Romans did just the same thing and made foreign names fit into their own system of declension. So the Athenian Περικλης for example just became Pericles and was fitted into the 3rd declension: Pericles, Periclis, Pericli, Periclem etc.
If you want to decline Superman, why not do it the same way? Superman, supermanis, supermani, supermanem, supermane etc. ... or just add an -us: Supermanus, supermani, supermano etc.
I assume this would also be clearer to a modern day reader.
Supermanes might be a bit unfortunateBitmap dixit:
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I don't even think that would be a problem considering there are also "Cicerones" -- "people like Cicero". So "supermanes" would be people like Superman
My pleadings are that "super" never really made its way out of the adverbial-prepositional niche and would therefore not have been understood by a Roman the way we understand it today. "supervir" would at best be understood as "man above"; so you might just as well leave it untranslated.
My pleadings are that "super" never really made its way out of the adverbial-prepositional niche and would therefore not have been understood by a Roman the way we understand it today. "supervir" would at best be understood as "man above"; so you might just as well leave it untranslated.
I was thinking more along the lines of super manes - above the ghosts...
Perseus has:
superabundantia (Late Latin but one cite in the Vulgate)
superumerale, -is (the upper garment of a Jewish priest)
super- attached to quite a few verbs and verb-derived nouns:
superventores (a kind of soldiers)
superabundantia (Late Latin but one cite in the Vulgate)
superumerale, -is (the upper garment of a Jewish priest)
super- attached to quite a few verbs and verb-derived nouns:
superventores (a kind of soldiers)
I think that this thread explores a number of very interesting questions.
If we are talking about the name of the character, I think that the best Latin for "Superman" is Superman, masculine and indeclinable. Saint Jerome (or whoever) did the same thing with a lot of proper names in the Vulgate, and in German we have, for example, "Superman [one n]-- Die Abenteuer von Lois und Clark [not Klark]".
But if we are talking about a philosophical concept, the Uebermensch, for example, or the Confucian Chuen Tzu, things become a lot trickier.
Just tacking a super- or an ultra- onto a substantive strikes me as un-Latin. Arch- is tempting, as in archangelus or archipirata. But the sense of such words is not quite what we want: archipirata does not so much mean "superior pirate" as is does "pirate chief".
The problem is complicated by the-- not misogynous, really, but anthropocentric in a narrow sense-- of some of the sources.
I like homo superior if we are speaking broadly, and vir superior if we are speaking about a wight specifically male.
If we are talking about the name of the character, I think that the best Latin for "Superman" is Superman, masculine and indeclinable. Saint Jerome (or whoever) did the same thing with a lot of proper names in the Vulgate, and in German we have, for example, "Superman [one n]-- Die Abenteuer von Lois und Clark [not Klark]".
But if we are talking about a philosophical concept, the Uebermensch, for example, or the Confucian Chuen Tzu, things become a lot trickier.
Just tacking a super- or an ultra- onto a substantive strikes me as un-Latin. Arch- is tempting, as in archangelus or archipirata. But the sense of such words is not quite what we want: archipirata does not so much mean "superior pirate" as is does "pirate chief".
The problem is complicated by the-- not misogynous, really, but anthropocentric in a narrow sense-- of some of the sources.
I like homo superior if we are speaking broadly, and vir superior if we are speaking about a wight specifically male.