Books for beginners?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Why should people be more logical about language than anything else?

 

[Quintilianus]

It is definitely true that most native speakers don't necessarily read their language's literature, neither is it the principal aim of many people who learn a modern foreign language, because there are other reasons why one may want or need to learn them, like effectively communicating with speakers of those languages. But with an ancient language like Latin it's obviously different, as the principal aim then is to be able to read the literature rather than communicate with ancient Romans. I must say I've never found it logical when people speak as if they wanted to learn Latin "colloquially" in the same way as modern languages, as if the aim was or even could possibly be the same.

Well, I must say I don't find it pointless to try to speak it correctly and even more than correctly, even if it's just an aim and not all achieve it. That's why I'm particularly interested in what is doing Miraglia. After all, Latin has been used for centuries after Cicero, Senecca, etc. The humanists did great with it, why shouldn't we ?

 

[Callaina]

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's actually part of Callaina's objective to learn to speak Latin "fluently", whatever you assume that means or can mean in respect of a corpus language like Latin that has no native speakers. Spoken fluency is certainly not part of my objective, nor that of many other Latinists I know.

It would be nice eventually, but right now it's very much secondary to other things for me (improving my speed/translation skills when reading Latin, mastering written Latin composition, learning Ancient Greek...)

I'm not sure that using the word "immersion" in that irregular way to refer only to reading a language succeeds in addressing the point Callaina was making about what is ordinarily meant by immersion being difficult if not impossible to achieve when studying Latin. It certainly does nothing to support any claim that LLPSI in particular is the best or quickest means of achieving reading fluency.

Apparently I've missed a lot on this thread. I probably should have laid out my position more clearly, so here goes.

The basic approach of LLPSI seems to be a "direct method" -- teaching grammar and syntax not explicitly, but implicitly through using the language a lot (mostly, reading), and the idea is that if you do enough of it it will just become automatic. (I know there are companion grammar books, but a lot of the students who do it seem to use only the main book...so...) This is opposed to other methods that teach you the grammar and syntax explictly, laying them all out in tables and such. Yes, LLPSI has little marginal notes that (sort of) try to explain bits of the grammar, but you never get to see how it all works, at least not until the final chapter when there's a grammar lesson written in Latin, LOL. For me at least that would be incredibly frustrating, like trying to solve a puzzle when I'm only given a few pieces at a time, and there's no picture on the box to show me what I'm aiming for and how it all fits together.

Now, that being said -- in my own way I did use a highly immersive approach; I mostly just hung out here a lot, on the forum, and read (or attempted to) nearly everything that was posted (at least in certain subforums). It was immensely helpful, since I was forced to tackle things that in a "gradual" approach like LLPSI (another reason I don't enjoy LLPSI; I find its learning curve is too nicely graded, too smooth; it doesn't force students to be resourceful and to tackle challenges...) I wouldn't have run across for months. But -- I had the basic tools (grammatical forms) from my textbook, which I could always look up when I was uncertain about something. If I hadn't I would simply have found the whole thing hopelessly vague and impossible to pin down what was going on.

I do seem to be in the minority, though, when it comes to this, and no doubt many students (those who like learning things step by step, very gradually and methodically) would find the "Callaina method" ridiculously aggravating...("what are all these crazy verb forms I've never seen before? That's not fair, the book didn't show me that yet!") But to each their own, I guess.

 

[Pacifica]

Well, I must say I don't find it pointless to try to speak it correctly and even more than correctly, even if it's just an aim and not all achieve it. That's why I'm particularly interested in what is doing Miraglia. After all, Latin has been used for centuries after Cicero, Senecca, etc. The humanists did great with it, why shouldn't we ?

Yes, why not. I'm not saying one can't learn to speak Latin if they want, but even then, unlike with modern languages, reading literature is absolutely necessary and unavoidable, since it's the only standard we have left to learn from, and if you don't read literature, you're pretty much doomed always to write and speak gibberish Latin anyway. So teaching methods should in any case focus on making you able to read literature. Btw, I'm not saying this isn't the case of LLPSI, since it's based on reading too...

 

[Quintilianus]

Yes, why not. I'm not saying one can't learn to speak Latin if they want, but even then, unlike with modern languages, reading literature is absolutely necessary and unavoidable, since it's the only standard with have left to learn from and if you don't read literature, you're pretty much doomed always to write and speak gibberish Latin anyway. So teaching methods should in any case focus on making you able to read literature. Btw, I'm not saying this isn't the case of LLPSI, since it's based on reading too...

Well, I quite agree the standard for learning must be set high, and that is the great latin literature. But this doesn't stop you from speaking everyday latin, even if some constructions you use are more or less made-up and not matching with those of classic Rome that we don't know of. As long as this "casual colloquial" is secondary and the aim is to be able to read and write a beautiful latin in which you can encompass humanity's greatest works, I'm ok with it.
A video of Miraglia that sums up this

 

[Aurifex]

As for Latinists, I'd ask you what you mean by that term.

Students and teachers of Latin at school and university level.

What is your objective in Latin ?

It's hard to define, but essentially it's to become better acquainted with the language and with the best that's been written in it.

Anyway, I'd be very interested to read your opinion on LLPSI.

I can see its attractions, but it wouldn't suit me; when I'm learning a second language I want to have its anatomy laid out before me as an orientating reference point for whatever task I'm undertaking.

The point is : it's not because the method of Orberg is not used the best way possible with immersion that it's not effective and not making the student able of some natural thinking, even though incomplete, in Latin.

Sorry but I don't get your meaning there.

I do seem to be in the minority, though, when it comes to this.

I'm sure you're not; advocacy for the direct method tends to be quite vocal, particularly on Internet forums.

 

[Callaina]

I can see its attractions, but it wouldn't suit me; when I'm learning a second language I want to have its anatomy laid out before me as an orientating reference point for whatever task I'm undertaking.

This. Exactly.

 

[Pacifica]

Students and teachers of Latin at school and university level.

I'm very sad to learn that I'm not a Latinist.

 

[Aurifex]

I'm very sad to learn that I'm not a Latinist.

Students and teachers of Latin at school and university level.

You're part of the gang.

 

[Callaina]

I'm very sad to learn that I'm not a Latinist.

Aren't you a student in some sense? I mean, obviously you're an expert, but even experts can still learn and study aspects of a language they weren't familiar with before (like poetic meters... )

 

[Pacifica]

Aren't you a student in some sense? I mean, obviously you're an expert, but even experts can still learn and study aspects of a language they weren't familiar with before (like poetic meters... )

Yes, but neither at school nor university.

 

[Callaina]

Yes, but neither at school nor university.

Oh, I had read his sentence as meaning (a) "students" and (b) "teachers of Latin at school and university level".

 

[Quintilianus]

Yes, but neither at school nor university.

But at a school or university level.

I can see its attractions, but it wouldn't suit me; when I'm learning a second language I want to have its anatomy laid out before me as an orientating reference point for whatever task I'm undertaking.

No one forbids you to have a grammar while using Orberg's LLPSI. But I get it.

Sorry but I don't get your meaning there.

The LLPSI method is not necessarily ineffective when not used in a fluently speaking environment, it's not the best way possible to use it of course (as any method anyway, it'll always be better to be immersed) but you still immerse yourself in the language.

 

[Callaina]

No one forbids you to have a grammar while using Orberg's LLPSI.

That's true. I guess I don't find the content overly appealing, either But that's a subjective judgment.

 

[Claudilla]

Yes it looks like they're (Accademia Vivarium Novum) moving to Villa Mondragone: their new campus and next year they will be taking girls, which is just wonderful
http://www.avvenire.it/Cultura/Pagine/LATINO-.aspx

 

[Quintilianus]

Yes it looks like they're (Accademia Vivarium Novum) moving to Villa Mondragone: their new campus and next year they will be taking girls, which is just wonderful
http://www.avvenire.it/Cultura/Pagine/LATINO-.aspx

I had come across this article, and others too, some older which seemed to imply it should have already begun.
Anyway, from Vivara Isle to Villa Mondragone and an International Campus of Humanism which I hope will be a success, Miraglia has done great I think and I kind of admire what he's done.

 

[Claudilla]

Bother I can't find it but they are having or just had a conference there. There is also a magazine Mercurius in Latin at their website.
I really admire Miraglia, what vision, it's the 21st century revival of Renaissance Humanism which is just what the West needs.

 

[Quintilianus]

Bother I can't find it but they are having or just had a conference there. There is also a magazine Mercurius in Latin at their website.
I really admire Miraglia, what vision, it's the 21st century revival of Renaissance Humanism which is just what the West needs.

The annual opening conference yes.
A video
I've only been able to find the first one for Mercurius, I don't know if there has been others.
Apparently, there is gonna be a new one : Mantinea.
The page on the website :
https://vivariumnovum.it/mantinea

well I had been on the website recently and apparently it's changed already, good news I hope. There were not this much pages about mantinea, and we can buy the first number which is already out, so great news ! And when I say recently, it was recently, like less than a week.

But we've gone far away from the OP.
I hope we've not deterred him from posting and that he'll explain what he meant.

edit : I think a thread on the Academia would do nice.
But I'm not sure in which section to post it and anyway some may be more fit to do it.
About Mantinea, if you want to buy it :
https://vivariumnovum.it/catalogo/mantinea-2015
I guess the 66 pages are just an excerpt. That's 50€, this is not nothing.
Well, that's more than 400 pages.

 

[Claudilla]

Quintilianus; good idea, I just started a thread devoted to Accademia in General Latin chat so let's resume our discussion over there and leave this thread help the initial learner.

 

[Tertius Legatus]

I was forced to tackle things that in a "gradual" approach like LLPSI (another reason I don't enjoy LLPSI; I find its learning curve is too nicely graded, too smooth; it doesn't force students to be resourceful and to tackle challenges...) I wouldn't have run across for months.

The fact that LL is gradual says something about its methodology: if I continually improve without feeling the effort, then I just have to keep going and I'll eventually get there--I'm trading effort for time. Adopting the gradual approach, it just becomes a matter of putting in the hours like training for a marathon. Obviously, not everyone enjoys the gradual method just like not everyone enjoys marathons. e.g. some people prefer sprints.

But just because I like LL doesn't mean I also don't enjoy a good challenge: in addition to reading Ørberg, I also attempt, using a grammar and a dictionary, a few times each week to read a couple of pages of authentic Latin like Commentarii de Bello Gallico to build new Latin "sprinting" muscles. Most of the time I'm in over my head in the grammar (vocabulary isn't quite as bad). Reading Caesar, I can definitely feel the effort, the burn in my Latin reading muscles trying to make sense of him. With LL (Vol. 1), it's just mostly pleasurable reading that I can do every day.