Klingner commentary on Boethius

Callaina

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Ok, here's another thorny bit; I think I have it, but I'd like to make sure:

Heraclitus Ephesius primus istis vigilandi ac dormiendi vocabulis usus est, ut se hominem inter homines alia tamen cogitare, alia magni aestimare, scire quod nemo sciret, postremo prope ad aliud genus animalium pertinere eis notaret.

Heraclitus Ephesius first used this language of "being awake" and "sleeping" to denote that he, a man among men, yet thought other things [i.e. from other people], considered other things important [again, from others], knew what nobody [else] knew, and finally almost belonged to another species of animal [i.e. he was so different from the rest of the human race that he was practically a different species from them].
 
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I would have translated 'primus' as 'was the first to use ...' to make it clearer, but I assume you know that :p

I'm a bit surprised by the use of istis over illis. It can't refer to a second person, so it sounds kind of pejorative to me ... but if it's used pejoratively, would such a statement befit a commentary? Or is there something about iste that I don't get?
 

Pacifica

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In later authors, iste was sometimes used for hic (and the usage stuck into the Romance languages, e.g. Sp. este).
 

Callaina

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I would have thought his, actually, since the vocabulis were just mentioned in the last sentence. But Klingner seems fond of iste/a/ud; I've seen him use it before in this commentary without any clear pejorative sense.

(Edit: replying to Bitmap.)
 
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In later authors, iste was sometimes used for hic (and the usage stuck into the Romance languages, e.g. Sp. este).

That (along with the previous question) makes me wonder if he didn't just immitate Boethius's style in his commentary ... (don't know much about his style, but it sort of hints in that direction, doesn't it?)
 

Callaina

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It's possible. I don't, though, recall Boethius using iste in quite that way.
 

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Here's another spot:

Qui modus loquendi quam etiam eis qui Platonem ignorabant, ex opere Boethii offulserit, ex eo loco Convivii Dantis cognoscitur ubi do Consolatione mentione facta ipsa memoria eius operis inductus eodem modo somniandi verbum usurpat.

I don't understand what quam is doing, nor the subjunctive in offulserit. Everything after ex eo loco is clear.
 

Pacifica

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Quam means "how much" and the subjunctive is because this is an indirect question depending on cognoscitur.
 

Callaina

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Ahhhh. Thanks.
 

Callaina

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Another tiny thing:

Sin animus in orbem moveri dicitur, in semet ipsum rediens, a semet ipso in se ipso motus (id enim eius motus proprium est) se ipsum intuetur et per se ea quae post eum et ea quae ante eum sunt, tum demum scientiam adeptus: nam antea in opinando et ratiocinando versabatur.

I don't understand what the id...proprium est in the bracketed part refers to.
 

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To a semet ipso in se ipso motus, no? Or I guess it could even be to the whole preceding part of the sentence (animus in orbem moveri dicitur, in semet ipsum rediens, a semet ipso in se ipso motus).
 

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Ok, that makes sense.
 

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Here's a rather larger chunk that I find confusing -- mostly because it contains rather technical spatial descriptions. I think I understand most of it, but would like to be sure. The passage relates to a section from the Consolation IIIM9: "Quae [sc. anima mundi] cum secta duos motum glomeravit in orbes,/In semet reditura meat mentemque profundam/Circuit et simili convertit imagine caelum." I've underlined the three parts I find most confusing. (His use of subjunctive tenses often seems off as well, but that's less of an issue.)

...neque tamen ex ipsis verbis [Timaeus 36e] Platonis elici poterat animam mentem circumire aut movere caelum simili imagine. Qui, si ad ipsam imaginem animo formatam spectatur, deum omne quod erat concretum atque corporeum, substravisse animae interiusque fecisse narrat, atque ita mediae animae medium accommodantem copulavisse; tum animam extremitatem caeli a superna regione rotundo ambitu circumiecisse et sese ipsam versare coepisse. Quod si quis eis perlectis interrogaretur, quidnam anima circumiret, "medium suum" responderet. Sin altius inquiret, quid sibi iste orbis velit, non ornamentum poeticum inanis delectationis causa eum fictum esse intelleget, sed motum utique non corporalem significare. Est enim orbis et Platoni et Platonicis simulacrum eius motus qui in sola mente agitur. Quam similitudinem si cum alia coniuxeris ea quoque Platonicis in primis cara, qua imperfecta res perfectas quasi chorea ambire animo fingitur [footnote: "ex Phaedro"], id efficitur quod apud Plotinum saepe invenitur, ut anima mentem circumeat, mens illud Unum. Quod a Timaeo, si ad imaginem animo oppositam spectas, alienum est.

"Neither from these words of Plato can it be drawn out that the soul goes around the mind or moves the heavens in a "similar image". Who [Plato] -- if one looks at the picture formed for the soul [i.e. "regarding the soul"?] -- says that the god subjugated everything that was concrete and corporeal to the soul and formed it [the concrete and corporeal] within, and thus, accommodating its middle to the middle of the soul, joined [the two]; then, that the soul, from a higher region, went around the outside of the heavens with a round orbiting and began to turn itself. Thus, if someone, having read these things, were asking what the soul went around, he would reply: "its own middle". If he were to further ask, what this orbit meant, he would understand it to not be a poetical ornament made for the sake of empty enjoyment, but assuredly to signify a non-corporeal motion. For [this] orbit, for both Plato and the Platonists, is a representation of the motion which is carried out in the mind alone. If you join this similarity to another, particularly dear to the Platonists, by which imperfect similarity [??] perfect things going around the soul like in a chorus are represented, it will turn out as is often found in Platonius, that the soul goes around the mind, the mind being that [famous] One. Which -- if you look at the image being opposed to the soul [??] -- is alien to the Timaeus."
 

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"Quae [sc. anima mundi] cum secta duos motum glomeravit in orbes,/In semet reditura meat mentemque profundam/Circuit et simili convertit imagine caelum."
Wow, funny coincidence: I read those lines (and some more around them) just a few minutes ago.
poterat
can
Is there a reason to change the tense?
if one looks at the picture formed for the soul [i.e. "regarding the soul"?]
I took animo as ablative.
interrogaretur
were asking
Mind the voice (maybe just a typo).
by which imperfect [similarity??]
I thought so too, at first, but then I realized it didn't make much sense.

I'm not entirely sure how to take it, though. It could be:

- that imperfecta goes with chorea in the nominative. ("A kind of imperfect dance...")

- that imperfecta refers to the soul, the soul in turn being compared to a dance. ("The soul... like a dance")

- that imperfecta refers to the soul and chorea is ablative. ("The soul... like in a dance")
perfect things going around the soul like in a chorus are represented
res perfectas... ambire animo fingitur = ... is imagined (represented in the mind = animo fingitur) to go around perfect things
the mind being that [famous] One.
Circumeat still applies here:

ut anima mentem circumeat, [et] mens illud Unum [circumeat].
if you look at the image being opposed to the soul [??]
Or "set before the soul" or so... Not sure what's meant by this. It's probably a reference to something I'm not aware of.
 

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qua imperfecta res perfectas
by which imperfect [similarity??]​
I thought so too, at first, but then I realized it didn't make much sense.

I'm not entirely sure how to take it, though. It could be:

- that imperfecta goes with chorea in the nominative. ("A kind of imperfect dance...")

- that imperfecta refers to the soul, the soul in turn being compared to a dance. ("The soul... like a dance")

- that imperfecta refers to the soul and chorea is ablative. ("The soul... like in a dance")
Wait... actually who said that res goes with perfectas? It reads more smoothly if you take res together with imperfecta. :D
 

Callaina

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Is there a reason to change the tense?
Well, present tense would be more usual in an academic paper (i.e. "neither can we draw out..."), but I suppose past is possible as well -- implying that Boethius couldn't have gotten the idea from Plato's words.

I took animo as ablative.
Ah -- I was confusing the anima (World Soul) with the reader's animus (which applies here as well):

res perfectas... ambire animo fingitur = ... is imagined (represented in the mind = animo fingitur) to go around perfect things
Mind the voice (maybe just a typo).
Oops. So "asks himself"?

I thought so too, at first, but then I realized it didn't make much sense.

I'm not entirely sure how to take it, though. It could be:

- that imperfecta goes with chorea in the nominative. ("A kind of imperfect dance...")

- that imperfecta refers to the soul, the soul in turn being compared to a dance. ("The soul... like a dance")

- that imperfecta refers to the soul and chorea is ablative. ("The soul... like in a dance")
Hmmm...will give it some more thought.

Circumeat still applies here: ut anima mentem circumeat, [et] mens illud Unum [circumeat].
Ahhh. Yes, that makes more sense, and is confirmed by a quote a bit later in the paragraph. Thanks.
 
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