I'm looking to get "everything happens for a reason" in Latin as a tattoo. I'm hoping the meaning is pretty self explanatory as I don't really have any better ways of describing it.
Thanks
Thanks
= 'nothing happens without a reason'. Fine. I think doing the double negative thing works well here, better than a literal rendering.Bitmap dixit:nihil fit sine causa
it's a Ciceronian sentiment.socratidion dixit:There's probably some really simple way of doing this. But I do think that Bitmap's version, elegantly simple as it is, is not getting under the surface.
That's true, but not pertinent unless you are sure what Cicero means. I've spent a bit of time tonight tracking down what I could from Cicero's works. According to my evidence, he means it in the rational/scientific sense, and not in the sense of a grand supernatural plan. It's a point about logic, not about the meaning of life. Most clearly here:Bitmap dixit:it's a Ciceronian sentiment.
It's not really "my translation"... just one of the best-known Latin phrases there are. :roll:socratidion dixit:blabla
I therefore submit, once again, that Bitmap's version does not answer the brief.
That’s not the issue. The question is whether the translation is appropriate.Bitmap dixit:It's not really "my translation"... just one of the best-known Latin phrases there are. :roll:
Absolutely -- as a vocabulary item, it has a wide range of meanings, but of course they depend on context. In the context of human action, it will take often take on the meaning of purpose/reason for doing something. But not here, where we are talking about the nature of the universe, and the concept of agency is moot.Bitmap dixit:The meaning range of causa is wider than merely "cause" as in "scientific cause and effect". Causa can also point to the purpose/reason for which something is done
It would help to read it. I'm not sure how you can get clearer than 'quicquid enim oritur, qualecumque est, causam habeat a natura necesse est', to show that 'causa' is not being used in the sense of purpose. The following bit you mention runs:Bitmap dixit:To be honest, I would also understand it that way in a work like de divinatione, which is concerned with the prevision of the future, not the rational logic of cause and effect. At least I don't understand how you can say that this is clear in the passage you stated. However, I must admit that I've only read parts of the work and that I haven't dealt with it in detail, so I can't really argue about that. (btw. the same sentiment occurs one paragraph later, in 2.61, again).
That's a bit of a leap. I suppose it's possible the English have derived from the Latin, but I doubt it: it didn't have to -- it's not a hard idea to come up with. It sounds more Christian than Ciceronian to me; or if not that, influenced by eastern religion. Karma. Ideas very foreign to Cicero's stoicism. I've seen the Latin around a lot on the internet, but if you ask me, it's just been misappropriated. There are plenty of examples of that sort of thing (if only I could think of one now!).Bitmap dixit:Still, I don't see the need to question a well-established proverb that is essentially the basis for this English phrase.
I agree Bitmap. It does need updating. After all, it is your own post.Bitmap dixit:Incidentally, this has been asked before a couple of times:
POST: #26077
I actually believe the post in the frequently asked translations could do with some updates as the translations offered here are much better than the primitive suggestions in the other threads.
In these situations provenance is everything. Should someone challenge the Latin the OP can simply retort, "Oh yeah, smartass? It's *@#%ing Cicero!"socratidion dixit:There's a pragmatic issue: it's a tattoo, it's the modern world, the OP wants a simple, grammatically correct Latin phrase, and probably doesn't care what Cicero said, as long as he/she can point to the tattoo and say 'that means, Nothing happens without a reason'.
don't worry... I do actually read your posts.socratidion dixit:OK? Now the boring bit; no-one has to read this, not even Bitmap, to whom it is principally addressed.
I just mentioned 2.61 as another source, not as a paragraph that would prove my point. As I said, I won't contest your argumentation because I'm no expert on de divinatione and I believe and trust that you're right in your understanding of this passage.It would help to read it. I'm not sure how you can get clearer than 'quicquid enim oritur, qualecumque est, causam habeat a natura necesse est', to show that 'causa' is not being used in the sense of purpose. The following bit you mention runs:
Yes, there is ... but only if you want the sentence to be understood the way Cicero did it in a particular passage. Bereft of context, the interpretation of nihil fit sine causa is entirely up to the reader and probably within the range of what the OP *may* have wanted (he/she never made it clear).socratidion dixit:There's a philosophical/linguistic issue:
thank you Johnny. I didn't notice that...Iohannes Aurum dixit:I agree Bitmap. It does need updating. After all, it is your own post.Bitmap dixit:Incidentally, this has been asked before a couple of times:
POST: #26077
I actually believe the post in the frequently asked translations could do with some updates as the translations offered here are much better than the primitive suggestions in the other threads.
If you make a new post on the topic, I can delete the old one for you and relink it in the index.Bitmap dixit:it's just that I can't edit a post any longer if it is almost 2 years old ....