Menander & Sophokles

[Kuba26]

Hansen & Quinn forced me to try my hand at some Menander and Sophokles:

Menander
371. A bride without a dowry has no freedom of speech.
102. For to men marriage is hardly to be prayed for.
15. The mortals are often hurt by thoughtlessness.
523. Sleep [is?] fearsome evil to the men.
722. To do many things everywhere is rotten.
723. And to do many things has many pains.

Sophokles
14. Skilled rulers of the wise [to being together with?]
850. And it is of the gods
he dies, but the gods do not.

Any feedback is much appreciated!

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

102 I'm not sure where you get 'hardly' from.

15 Why the passive?

722 & 723 I suspect the verb and object have their idiomatic sense of 'meddle' here.

14 The last word seems to be giving a reason for the adjective.

850 Remember that neuter plural subjects take singular verbs.

 

[Kuba26]

102 I'm not sure where you get 'hardly' from.

15 Why the passive?

722 & 723 I suspect the verb and object have their idiomatic sense of 'meddle' here.

14 The last word seems to be giving a reason for the adjective.

850 Remember that neuter plural subjects take singular verbs.

Menander
102. I read κακόν as bad, as in 'marriage is badly [read: not really] to be prayed for'
15. Because of βλάπτονται
722. & 723. What does that mean for my effort?

Sophokles
14. Does the dative somehow relate to the adjective? As in 'Skilled rulers accompany the wise' for instance?
850. That would mean, literally translated 'And the things of the gods die, but the gods do not.' [in which τα is a substantive article meaning 'the things' or 'the affairs'].

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On a phone, so briefly -- you can't really translate the last word of the first one adverbially, & the adjective describes it; sorry, misread the second. The problematic dative is comparable to the Latin ablative here. More later, unless someone else steps in.

 

[Kuba26]

I'd appreciate that

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

102 I'd take it as meaning For people, marriage is an evil that they pray for (i.e. they don't realise it's a bad thing, so they actively want it before they get it).

15 & 23 I'd drop the definite articles in English, as these are general statements about humanity. Perhaps 'not thinking' would be better than 'thoughtfulness' -- the latter seems to imply to my ear that they're suffering because of other people's lack of consideration, while the Greek expresses the thought that it is their own failure to think things through that does for them

722 Meddling is a bad thing everywhere and 723 Meddling is painful, or perhaps more idiomatically You'll regret meddling -- something to convey that you're going to be in trouble, though not necessarily physical pain, if you engage in this activity.

14P Standing in isolation as it does, it would seem to mean that tyrants are wise because of their association with wise men, not being the brightest bulbs themselves.

850 'Things of the gods', yes, in the sense of the humans and animals and vegetation they have created.

Does that make it clearer? Feel free to ask if anything's still problematic.

 

[Kuba26]

722 Meddling is a bad thing everywhere and 723 Meddling is painful, or perhaps more idiomatically You'll regret meddling -- something to convey that you're going to be in trouble, though not necessarily physical pain, if you engage in this activity.

Can τό πολλά πράττειν be read as 'meddling'?

722. Meddling everywhere is rotten.
723. Meddling has many pains.

14P Standing in isolation as it does, it would seem to mean that tyrants are wise because of their association with wise men, not being the brightest bulbs themselves.

In that case, should I insert a copula between σοφοί and τύραννοι?

14. Together with the wise, rulers are skilled.

These are the updated lines:
371. A bride without a dowry has no freedom of speech.
102. For, to people, marriage is an evil to be prayed for.
15. Mortals are often hurt by not thinking.

850. And the things of the gods die, but the gods do not.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to figure this one out...
523. Sleep [is?] fearsome evil to men.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Can τό πολλά πράττειν be read as 'meddling'?

722. Meddling everywhere is rotten.
723. Meddling has many pains.

'Everywhere' goes with the adjective -- literally 'rotten', though that sounds odd in English. The sense is that this sort of activity is considered bad everywhere.

In that case, should I insert a copula between σοφοί and τύραννοι?

14. Together with the wise, rulers are skilled.

'By means of their association with' would get the force of the ablatival dative better.

102. For, to people, marriage is an evil to be prayed for.

The sense isn't that it is something to be prayed for, but that they do pray for it, presumably in ignorance of the fact that it's an evil.

850. And the things of the gods die, but the gods do not.

Yes, though it seems a bit odd to use 'things' of animate beings like animals and humans.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to figure this one out...
523. Sleep [is?] fearsome evil to men.

Adding the copula and the indefinite article -- sleep is a fearful evil for men -- seems to make an unobjectiobly sententious statement, which have more relevance in its dramatic context. Does it seem particularly strange?

 

[Kuba26]

'Everywhere' goes with the adjective -- literally 'rotten', though that sounds odd in English. The sense is that this sort of activity is considered bad everywhere.

722. I think I see, 'to do many things [read: 'meddling'] εστί bad everywhere'. I don't know why I initially moved 'everywhere' in front of verb. Thanks for pointing that out!

'By means of their association with' would get the force of the ablatival dative better.

14. Now that you mentioned that ablative nature of this particular dative, I understand the function of ξυνουσια in this sentence a little better. And I guess the copula is sort of implied in the translation of this line? That is to say, σοφοί τύραννοι '... rulers [are] wise'?

I have noticed that I have yet to develop a sense of reading copulas where there aren't any, as in 102. γάμος γαρ ανθρώποισιν ευκταίον κακόν '... marriage [is] an evil ...'. Although I should mention that Hansen & Quinn have written in their notes that the translation of ευκταίον is 'to be prayed for'. Hence my choice for this particular phrase.

Adding the copula and the indefinite article -- sleep is a fearful evil for men -- seems to make an unobjectiobly sententious statement, which have more relevance in its dramatic context. Does it seem particularly strange?

523. ύπνος δεινòν άνθρώποις κακόν, again - to my untrained eye - a verb that must be read between the lines, so to speak. And as it turns out, I find this hard sometimes. So, 'Sleep [is] a fearful evil for men' would be an accurate reading?