Proto-(Balto)-Slavic/PIE

Glabrigausapes

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Добро пожаловать, друже наш.
Hemo Rusticus are you a native speaker of some Slavic language? (Russian?)
No, regrettably. I took two years of Russian in college but stopped 'cause it was getting tedious. It gave me a solid foothold in OCS though, which was in large part the reasonI took it. Even got myself a copy of the Codex Marianus, the longest Glagolitic text, far as I know.

What's your story, pally? Seems like you have a penchant for comparative linguistics, nicht wahr?
 

Serenus

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What's your story, pally? Seems like you have a penchant for comparative linguistics, nicht wahr?
My story? I do like comparative linguistics, yeah. I don't have much of an interest in proto-languages though, I rather just like comparing a few modern languages that I have an interest in with older closely related languages, to see their similarities. So since I intend to learn Russian to some extent and a bit of Czech, I might as well throw in some OCS (even if it's Southern Slavic) for the fun of it.
 

Glabrigausapes

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So since I intend to learn Russian to some extent and a bit of Czech, I might as well throw in some OCS (even if it's Southern Slavic) for the fun of it.
That's the way. Then you'll have a bit of every branch.
 
 

Godmy

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Even got myself a copy of the Codex Marianus, the longest Glagolitic text, far as I know.
Cool, I remember this one, my grandma told me about it. When she studied bohemistics in 50's, one of her assignments (probably in an OCS class or related) for one professor was to compare the Marianus and Zograph(?) and to find the evidence that one is older than the other. She collected the data on the case endings used in both, made some declension tables based on the codices, presented her result to the professor. Funnily enough, she says that the result was that the one which is supposed to be older, was in fact younger, but the professor didn't protest on the study she did, so the study was quite probably carried out correctly.

She says she based it on o-stems and u-stems.
 

Glabrigausapes

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That's wild! Very cool.
 

Glabrigausapes

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Earlier I was wondering about the 'e' in Czech/Polish instrumental sg., e.g. hradem, mistakenly thinking it was an effect of the originally palatalized vowel seen in OCS градомь. But the Czech section of The Slavic Languages says that this form, like the dat. & loc. sg., is also a loan from the u-stems. & then I remembered that the regular reflex of PS -ъ is 'e' in Czech/Polish, as in OCS сънъ, R сон, but Czech sen. So I guess the mystery is solved.

I also have to ask, Godmy, about a statement made in Czech Through Russian, that in 'colloquial Czech' essentially every word beginning in 'o' may rather be pronounced 'vo-' depending on the register of speech warranted by the occasion, as in 'osm' or 'vosm'? My thinking is that Czech has expanded considerably on what may have been an early Proto-(Balto-)Slavic habit of pronouncing this vowel diphthongally (as in wo-), so that the reflexes vary depending on the more popular form within the isogloss, e.g. R восемь, Polabian visem, but Slovak osem, (standard) Czech osm.
 
 

Godmy

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Earlier I was wondering about the 'e' in Czech/Polish instrumental sg., e.g. hradem, mistakenly thinking it was an effect of the originally palatalized vowel seen in OCS градомь. But the Czech section of The Slavic Languages says that this form, like the dat. & loc. sg., is also a loan from the u-stems. & then I remembered that the regular reflex of PS -ъ is 'e' in Czech/Polish, as in OCS сънъ, R сон, but Czech sen. So I guess the mystery is solved.
Ah, maybe I don't understand everything, but if I understand what u-stems was, "hrad" in modern Czech behaves completely as an u-stem I would say, it has -u genitive for start... but I suppose that this exact word was an o-stem? I'm little confused about Slavic u-stems, but hrad here is a distinct declension from pán which for us is the paradigm for the o-stems (I think).

I also have to ask, Godmy, about a statement made in Czech Through Russian, that in 'colloquial Czech' essentially every word beginning in 'o' may rather be pronounced 'vo-' depending on the register of speech warranted by the occasion,
I would say, or at least in "normal colloquial Czech" (without any special dialectal influence) that the chance that the "v-" creeps in is 10-20-30%. I think I rarely use it and people around me too. It's possible, but not that much used. Basically, it's still no problem for the Czech phonology to operate comfortably with o-initial words.

as in 'osm' or 'vosm'?
For example, this one would be a variant I would never use, it would sound funny to me, it would sound as though I wanted to imitate some peasant perhaps... and I'm not sure the peasant would say it :D It just sounds ... like a colloquial variant one would use after drinking many beers, it's weird and I wouldn't say proliferated. But it's possible. But even in the colloquial registers it's somehow a "sub-language"... something too careless even for a colloquial language.

My thinking is that Czech has expanded considerably on what may have been an early Proto-(Balto-)Slavic habit of pronouncing this vowel diphthongally (as in wo-),
Ah, that's quite interesting! A diphthong originally...

...so that the reflexes vary depending on the more popular form within the isogloss, e.g. R восемь, Polabian visem, but Slovak osem, (standard) Czech osm.
I see. Thanks for those examples, I didn't know about those other Slavic forms... but now, when I think of it, I once noticed that the Ukrainian "on" (Czech) is "vin" :) Here "von" would be quite acceptable colloquial or sub-colloquial variant for "on" (a little bit more acceptable than "vosm") and I remember that intriguided me :p
 

Glabrigausapes

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